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Truck Equipment Requirements
#11
Building campers is all about profit, making payroll, market share and meeting customer demand.
Personally, I would prefer a lighter weight camper - even if that means making the interior less attractive.
I have raised panel solid wood cabinet doors at home.  I don't want them in my camper.

But it's beautiful spacious interiors that sell a camper.
And if that's what sells a camper, that's what factories will build.

It's too bad that factories don't build an alternative.
Maybe a frame only with exterior skin - let the customer select the lightweight components and interior skins as an option.

Or maybe consumers need a political action committee to make factories be 100-percent honest and up front about what kind of truck one will be required to haul their product.
Tobacco companies obfuscated their product for a long time and it took government (ech!) action to put a truth label on their product.
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I've read that in Canada the Mounties can pull you over and have you drive to the nearest scale if your rig is thought to be overweight. 
And if your rig is overweight, they make you park it.  Then what? :o


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#12
here are some thoughts.  I have been through a lot of this lately and it is actually difficult to sort it all out.  we hear so much from so many different sources.

I started this last fall.  I have(now it is had) a 2008 f450.  I pulled a 39 foot 21000 lb 5th wheel with it for over 100000 miles.  With no problems....

But, we can't get into the national parks, national forests, etc.  and can't get around well enough in rough roads, off road etc.

So after much ado we purchased a used Bigfoot with a large slide slide in and a jeep to pull behind it.  we were told it wieghed 3637 lbs.

WRONG.  We discovered after puchase and long gone from the dealer, a sheet which showed that amount as the weight before options.  Almost everything is an option.  with all options the camper weighs 4692 lbs.  No small difference!

Still, my 450 is a beast...But, wait there is more.

The camper had a center of gravity of 57 inches from the front.  But there's more. there are 2 1/2 inches on the front of that in the form of bumpers.  The center of the rear axle is at about 53 inches from the front of the bed.

EVERY piece of info I have seen says keep the COG ahead(towards the front) of the axle.  In this case in an 8 foot bed I am at least four inches behind that line!  And, that is after removing the bumpers.

What does this mean...Well I weighed my truck before going to pick up the camper.  Then weighed it immediately after getting the camper.  What happens is that 100% of the weight of the camper goes on the rear axle..there is no distribution forward.

The rear axle rating of my truck is/was 9600 lbs.  With camper on and a little water(maybe 10 gallons) and probably 3/4 of my stuff  jammed in the crew cab,  the weight was 9780 lbs on the rear axle.  That is about 180 lbs over the GWAR of the rear.  the front was 5400 lbs with my wife and i in the truck, before and after.

So I am over 1000 lbs over the 14000 GVWR of the F450.  A beast.

Having said that, I had no handling problems with the truck at all, even in very heavy wind(I drive that truck about 60 mph.  It did bounce on rough spots however, and was sitting down far on the rear axle.  I do have G load tires on the rear(stock is E about 12000 lbs of carrying power) the G load tires raise that to almost 16000 lbs.

I have 130000 miles on that truck.  I put about 5000 on with this camper and began to notice some "cupping" on the front tires...light on the right but significant on the left.

I added airbags to the back and heavy duty Bilstein Shocks all around.  After another 2000 miles I saw no further cupping and the rough road bumps basically disappeared.  i am a big fan of the air bags!  The mechanic also told me the left front shock was gone!!  nothing to it...So that was part of the problem.

So then I started reading about the new 2013 350 dually.  Up to 7000+ in payload.  got real interested.  Also, note that the 350 and 450 both now have the same gvwr of 14000.  The problem is my 450 weighs 9800 with nothing attached.  so the 350 I think will be at least 1500 less than the 450 I had but have the same gvwr.


I bought it yesterday..  With it comes a customer sheet.  the "carrying capacity" of the truck is listed at 4500 lbs.  Not 6300 lbs!  It is 4wd and it has the hitch prep in it, but otherwise it is like most bought.. a lariat CC.  The literature is therefore I think somewhat misleading. 

I had air bags added right from the start.  It rides very very nicely. Drove it today for first time about 300 miles.  Much better ride than my 2008 450.  I have not weighed it yet, but i am hopeful it comes in very near the 14000 lb figure.

But, I think all the weight will be on the rear axle.

So, now I ask you guys who already have one.  have you weighed it at a truck stop to see what the real numbers are.

It will cost you about 10.00.  I would love to hear.  We bought the bigfoot used, and my wife has totally fallen in love with the 1165!  we plan to buy a new one for the long term this summer.  but I am afraid for two reasons.  It is Heavy...probably even heavier than the one I have now....AND..the COG is somewhere near 63 inches...this will put it perhaps 8 to nine inches behind the rear axle.  All the weight will be on that back axle...none distributed forward,  and it will likely put the rear axle over weight.  and the handling?

I hope this long post l is helpful..I am not saying what anyone should or should not do, just wanted you to know what I have observed so far.

I had no trouble today...also an extremely windy day in texas...wind 25 mph and up coming from the front at about a 45 deg angle to the truck.  No problem handling.  but.....it ain't right.  It would be so helpful if they got the COG right. Everyone preaches it over and over in technical statements including the manufacturers, but I no of NO truck that can carry that COG properly that is a stock pickup one ton 1 1.5 like mine or otherwise.  Only perhaps a specially designed chassis vehicle...If someone knows different I am all ears.

thanks for reading.  Know it was long, but hopefully useful.

Please give me update on this 1165 because my wife and I would love to have it..I am just scared about it because of the above.

Larry
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#13
Hi Larry and welcome to the ECO forum.
You may have read this post already: http://www.eaglecapowners.com/yakima/ind...topic=14.0
It contains very helpful information on the 1165

And thanks for your very detailed post.  It seems one can never do enough homework to avoid all surprises!
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#14
(02-17-2013, 08:35 AM)Rich link Wrote: The published GVWR includes one 150-pound passenger in each seating location AND a full tank of fuel.
The new models (i think it's the 2013 models) have a whopping 14,000 GVWR

Here's a primer that is worth a read:
http://www.eaglecapowners.com/campfire/t...IC_ID=1321

This statement doesn't make any sense. GVWR=gross vehicle weight rating. It doesn't include anything. It's just how much your truck is rated to weigh.

On your door jamb there will be a GVWR and a payload. GVWR-payload=curb weight.

I have read some conflicting info on what curb weight includes. Some say the curb weight is the vehicle's weight with a full tank of fuel and a 150lb driver, others say it includes 150 per passenger. 

My truck's sticker says "cargo and occupants shall not exceed 1086lbs" (current half ton). Therefore, I believe, curb weight equals truck with fuel and nothing more. My truck is far from stock otherwise I'd go weigh it. However, when my new truck arrives I'm headed straight to the scale to bust this myth.
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#15
Thanks Rich....

It is all very interesting to me....There are things happening in back rooms that none of us are really aware of.  For example, these GVWR and GCWR, etc.  and interaction with various state and federal laws and regulations.

My f450 with 19.5 in wheels, huge brakes, extra durability here and there, and everywhere, and a 4.88 rear end was rated at 33000lbs GCWR. l the GVWR was 14000 lbs. I weighed the truck with accessories at 9800lbs.

My new f350 (which I haven't weighed yet) has the exact same GVWR of 14000 lbs.  With 17 inch tires and smaller brakes and a 3.73 rear end.  It is rated at 30,000lbs GCWR.  The newer f450 is still 33000 lbs with a 4.30 rear end smaller brakes and smaller tires.

what is magic about 33000 and 14000?  I think it is laws, regulations, and insurance policies.

But I'm just a poor little consumer....so I am just saying.....

My new truck does not have the "payload" listed on the door frame.  It has a stated GVWR of 14000 lbs.

The front axle is noted at 5940 "WITH" LT245/75R 17E tires "AT" 75 lbs PSI.

The Rear axle is noted at 9650 lbs "WITH" LT245/75R 17E tires "AT" 65 lbs PSI.

That adds up to 14590 lbs.  not 14000lbs.  but there are other variables like brakes, right?

So what happens if the "AT" becomes 80 lbs PSI instead of 75 and the "WITH" becomes G load tires instead of "E" load tires, and you add air bags and heavy duty shocks, and heavier sway bar.....

The limitiing factor then becomes the "brakes"....

So, the point to me is that it is a moving target. and we are not informed on all the exact variables of what goes into the engineering and then how "federal and state laws and regulations" change how they put numbers on it.

BTW...It explicitly says in my documentation that the "payload" number is calculated using a value of 150 lbs per passenger for the number of seats provided.  In my case FIVE ...TWO in bucket seats in the front and THREE  in the back bench seat.  Is this by regualtion, or arbitrary decision of the manufacuter, in haven't a clue.  So does Ford do it one way and Chevy another???

In the meantime, we each just do our best to have a safe ride and lots of fun outhere in the RVing world!

larry

Bigfoot Slide in with full length slide 2008
2013 F350 with Firestone rear airbags, camper package
quickdisconnect stableloads on order
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#16
(03-05-2013, 06:29 PM)clarryhutto link Wrote: BTW...It explicitly says in my documentation that the \"payload\" number is calculated using a value of 150 lbs per passenger for the number of seats provided.  In my case FIVE ...TWO in bucket seats in the front and THREE  in the back bench seat.  Is this by regualtion, or arbitrary decision of the manufacuter, in haven't a clue.  So does Ford do it one way and Chevy another???

larry

Bigfoot Slide in with full length slide 2008
2013 F350 with Firestone rear airbags, camper package
quickdisconnect stableloads on order

Do you have a link or scan of this documentation?

I swore all vehicles were required to have a payload sticker after the Firestone/exploder debacle. It should be on your driver door. Every truck I've seen has one.


As far as the 150# passenger rule goes, are you sure this is not in reference to the "camper weight rating" which is a seperate number that is lower than the trucks payload rating.
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#17
(03-04-2013, 06:50 PM)Eaglecap995 link Wrote: [quote author=Rich link=topic=19.msg74#msg74 date=1361115324]
The published GVWR includes one 150-pound passenger in each seating location AND a full tank of fuel.
The new models (i think it's the 2013 models) have a whopping 14,000 GVWR

Here's a primer that is worth a read:
http://www.eaglecapowners.com/campfire/t...IC_ID=1321

This statement doesn't make any sense. GVWR=gross vehicle weight rating. It doesn't include anything. It's just how much your truck is rated to weigh.

On your door jamb there will be a GVWR and a payload. GVWR-payload=curb weight.

I have read some conflicting info on what curb weight includes. Some say the curb weight is the vehicle's weight with a full tank of fuel and a 150lb driver, others say it includes 150 per passenger. 

My truck's sticker says "cargo and occupants shall not exceed 1086lbs" (current half ton). Therefore, I believe, curb weight equals truck with fuel and nothing more. My truck is far from stock otherwise I'd go weigh it. However, when my new truck arrives I'm headed straight to the scale to bust this myth.
[/quote]
I would refer you to this document:
http://www.eaglecapowners.com/campergall...d-2005.pdf

Note in the upper right hand corner (continued from the lower left paragraph) where Ford makes the published statement of "150 lb passenger in each seat" (I paraphrase).
That was Ford literature for my truck purchased in 2005 - perhaps Ford has changed their rating method.

I have to admit, it's hard as pulling hen's teeth to sometimes get this information for a current truck.
If I were to sell you my truck, this would be the published Ford documentation that I would provide you.

Newer trucks may vary in both mileage, factory documentation and cost.  Smile
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#18
That document pretty much confirms what I'm saying.

Your statement that "GVWR includes a 150# passenger for each seat" is wrong. GVWR is merely the weight rating of the truck.

Payload + Truck Weight must not exceed GVWR.

Payload is whatever is left over after subtracting the trucks weight from GVWR.

The chart you provided shows the truck's max camper rating, which is payload minus 150#/seat.

So, absent passengers would allow you to exceed the camper weight rating by 150# each, without exceeding GVWR or payload.

The best option is just to weigh your truck and subtract from GVWR. Whatever that number is is how much you can haul be it people, campers, tongue weight, whatever.

Theoretically, you should be able to estimate your trucks weight by subtracting the payload on the door from the GVWR on the door, assuming you haven't made any modifications.

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#19
(03-05-2013, 11:39 PM)Eaglecap995 link Wrote: That document pretty much confirms what I'm saying.

Your statement that \"GVWR includes a 150# passenger for each seat\" is wrong. GVWR is merely the weight rating of the truck.
You're right, the document reads "Cargo Weight Rating shown in the chart . . .and a 150 lb passenger at each available seating position".
By Cargo Weight Rating, I'm assuming that they mean "Payload".
The printed chart payload rating includes passengers and fuel, does it not?

Regardless, your right about weighing the truck.  It is the only true weigh  Wink to determine what the truck weighs.
Just remember to remove the tailgate and fill the fuel tank before weighing it.
 
A little off topic, but if it's the available payload one is looking for, they might as well throw in that tool box and any other gear that they always take camping when weighing the truck.
That weigh number will help achieve the available payload for the camper.

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#20
See page 5:
http://media.ford.com/images/10031/2013_..._Specs.pdf

Then page 4:
http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/gener...rdtypu.pdf

Note that the second chart is specifically written for truck camper use and that the ratings are at least 300-900lbs less than, but not equal to, the first chart. It appears that Ford does not recommend full use of payload for hauling a truck camper, and that it varies by truck.

So I guess the moral of the story here is: if you are referencing the truck camper loading guide numbers you can carry an additional 150lbs in your camper for each empty seat without exceeding GVWR.

But... If you reference the payload sticker on the door there is no allowance for passengers. Every passenger you carry will reduce your ability to haul. Empty seats do NOT allow you to add to the number printed on the door.
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